This is Ukraine - Do not Panic.

[Rufus_the_dawg]

yes and it completely wrong, but we did not target hospitals it is against the Geneva convention. So it is a false equivalence. The Russians targeted hospitals all the time in Syria to bring down the moral of the opposition and they also used chemical weapons up to 17 time in Syria. The British are nothing like the Russians.

[Slim]

BTW Mr Slikk2112 I pinged you a message, pls check "My Messages" at the top of the page when you can. Ta.

[Nick]

Truth, it's a Moving Target - unlike the Sov Convoy heading for Kiev.

There is a theory that the convoy was set up to see if NATO would attack it.

Nice for the soldiers!

[David L]

yes and it completely wrong, but we did not target hospitals it is against the Geneva convention. So it is a false equivalence. The Russians targeted hospitals all the time in Syria to bring down the moral of the opposition and they also used chemical weapons up to 17 time in Syria. The British are nothing like the Russians.

 
https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/may/20/balkans9#:~:text=Three%20people%20were%20killed%20when,in%20the%20hospital%20were%20demolished.

I don't deny the Russians are ruthless but I suspect we're being played as the propaganda war also escalates

[Nickslikk2112]

BTW Mr Slikk2112 I pinged you a message, pls check "My Messages" at the top of the page when you can. Ta.

Oooh good, POWER!!!!

[Slim]

yes and it completely wrong, but we did not target hospitals it is against the Geneva convention. So it is a false equivalence. The Russians targeted hospitals all the time in Syria to bring down the moral of the opposition and they also used chemical weapons up to 17 time in Syria. The British are nothing like the Russians.

 
https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/may/20/balkans9#:~:text=Three%20people%20were%20killed%20when,in%20the%20hospital%20were%20demolished.

I don't deny the Russians are ruthless but I suspect we're being played as the propaganda war also escalates

You linked a news story about NATO bombing a hospital in Kosovo in 1999 which was obviously an accident.

If your point is that the Ukraine hospital bombing incident from this week could also be accidental I agree, except that the Russians have now told us that it was deliberate (on the grounds that it was being used by Ukrainian paramilitaries). But more importantly they've already hit a number of civilian targets.

I think punishing the general populace is part of the strategy.

[David L]

Yup. It had been cleared out by the Azov Battalion, so they could attack glorious Russian liberators.

https://www.rt.com/russia/551620-mariupol-maternity-hospital-bombing/




Azov Battalion??? Who they? How come I've not heard of them from our tax-funded state broadcaster?       

[David L]

Victoria Nuland admits that the US has been collaborating with Ukraine at biological research facilities......a bit like they were doing in China 

https://www.opindia.com/2022/03/usa-admits-biolabs-in-ukraine-says-biological-attack-russias-fault/

US administration and CIA up to their necks in it......again

[Rufus_the_dawg]

David you are quoting RT! do you believe RT? and from the Opindia link, (and opindia they Indians abstained from the UN resolutions.)

"On Tuesday, the US government's Undersecretary of State for Political Affairs Victoria Nuland testified before a Senate Foreign Relation Committee hearing on Ukraine in Washington, DC, and said that the United States was working with Ukraine to prevent invading Russian forces from seizing biological research material. The State Department also stated that it was concerned that Russian forces are trying to gain control of biological research facilities within Ukraine. The committee was set to examine Russia's invasion of Ukraine and the worldwide response."

Do you want the Russians to have more chemical weapons? you do realise you are living in the UK where you can say more or less what you want, in Russia you can only say what Putin wants, do you realise Putin is Evil? The BBC is independent of the the government, Slim often criticises the BBC for slagging of the government, you do realise Putin's friends have given the Tories up to £12 billion quid. ? Justa wondering what side you are on. The Russians have invaded an independent country that been around since the 11th century and are systematically destroying it and killing innocent people, and if we (the west and nato) get involved they are threatening nuclear war and oblivion.

It is not a case of the Russians have any good in them they are a nasty bunch of Fascists.

Putin like Hitler is a nasty piece of work, all because Hitler liked dogs does not mean he was good.

[pdw1]

Some times I think DavidL is a russian bot

[Nickslikk2112]

Putin like Hitler is a nasty piece of work, all because Hitler liked dogs does not mean he was good.

Hitler liking dogs proves he was EVIL 

[Rufus_the_dawg]

of course it does.

[Nick]

So much footage on social media. Not that I think NATO should be involved but I think they would easily smash the Russians, all their artillery would be taken out via planes, drones etc. Much of the Russian equipment looks old and their airforce has not really shown any massive superiority. The stingers, nlaws,manpads and Javelins seem to be the weapons of choice.

[David L]

David you are quoting RT! do you believe RT? and from the Opindia link, (and opindia they Indians abstained from the UN resolutions.)

"On Tuesday, the US government's Undersecretary of State for Political Affairs Victoria Nuland testified before a Senate Foreign Relation Committee hearing on Ukraine in Washington, DC, and said that the United States was working with Ukraine to prevent invading Russian forces from seizing biological research material. The State Department also stated that it was concerned that Russian forces are trying to gain control of biological research facilities within Ukraine. The committee was set to examine Russia's invasion of Ukraine and the worldwide response."

Do you want the Russians to have more chemical weapons? you do realise you are living in the UK where you can say more or less what you want, in Russia you can only say what Putin wants, do you realise Putin is Evil? The BBC is independent of the the government, Slim often criticises the BBC for slagging of the government, you do realise Putin's friends have given the Tories up to £12 billion quid. ? Justa wondering what side you are on. The Russians have invaded an independent country that been around since the 11th century and are systematically destroying it and killing innocent people, and if we (the west and nato) get involved they are threatening nuclear war and oblivion.

It is not a case of the Russians have any good in them they are a nasty bunch of Fascists.

Putin like Hitler is a nasty piece of work, all because Hitler liked dogs does not mean he was good.

I think it helps to understand the situation by considering the possible causes. This, obviously includes the Maidan Uprising of 2013 which led to the ousting of president Vicktor Yanukovich. That act was predicated oh his refusal to sign an agreement with the EU (according to polling in 2013, less than half the population agreed it would be good for Ukraine) after turning towards Moscow.
The east of Ukraine has always contained a population that was more alighned with Russia and that helped Russia reclaim influence in some areas and take Crimea in 2014.
The civil war in the Donbas region has gone on for 8 years and the Ukrainians have bombarded the area with EU-supplied weapons constantly, killing many civilians in the process. This is where the Azov Battalions come in. An ultra-national (Nazi) group that were assimilated into the Ukrainian military in order to try to defeat Russian-backed separatists in the region (Ukraine has long had an issue with nationalism).
The EU and the US have spent billions trying to secure influence over Ukraine in the meantime. This includes dangling the carrot of both EU and NATO membership...albeit at some future date. Since the dissolution of the USSR, NATO has expanded towards Russia's borders. This may be a good thing but it feeds into Russian paranoia and could be argued is a provocation. It also reneges on promises made after the fall of the Soviet Union.
The whole s**t show is a failure of EU and US foreign policy, that's not excusing the evil and paranoid mindset of the Russian government who, undoubtedly would exploit any opportunity to restore historic borders if they could.
War is disastrous. The people of Ukraine that are being killed, injured and fleeing from the horror are pawns in a game being played by greater powers IMHO. Control of Ukraine would be extremely beneficial to the US, both strategically and economically. It is full of minerals and gas.
The situation is far more complicated and nuanced than we are led to believe from the news reports.
As to the question of 'the truth'.I was not particularly inspired by Victoria Nuland's response about the bio-labs question, clearly she struggled to find a 'palatable' response. We have to admit that the US regularly tells porkies or hides the truth. Has done for years.
Russia would probably have been satisfied with Ukraine as a neutral neighbour without access to nuclear weapons. The US felt threatened by having communist Cuba on their doorstep and tried to overthrow the regime with a CIA-sponsored coup leading to the Cuban-missile crisis.
Russia is run by a terrible regime that cares little for its people but I think you have to examine the west's role in this and its disastrous foreign policy over the last thirty years.
This is interesting. May not be right or accurate but it is an interesting view:

https://www.mearsheimer.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Why-the-Ukraine-Crisis-Is.pdf

What we all want is for the war to end and the desperate plight of the Ukrainian people to improve. Politicians, everywhere have failed them.
 I've only been reading up the Ukrainian situation since the war started and I admit, I may have misinterpreted things and drawn the wrong conclusions. Of course, always happy to be educated/corrected.
I hope this makes my position clearer. To me, it doesn't seem to be black and white but hugely complicated with lots of strands.
By the way, my local district council and MP have benefitted from fairly significant Russian donations

[pdw1]

2 points spring to mind in your analysis

- 30 years is a very short time in history. You need to take at least a good 100 years look at this region, in fact probably a 1000 years or more.

- you mention Russia, the US, NATO & EU and very little about the locals; Ukrainians, Poles, Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians, Slovaks, Romanians, Jews, Germans and probably a few others. Do their thoughts and wishes not count?