Scottish Football Teams In England

[The Picnic Wasp]

I know this topic is generally scoffed at but with the likelihood of Scottish Independence drifting, why, if the UK is so desperate for Scotland to remain within the union, are Scottish teams not welcome in the English league set-up? It's not just about a share in the spoils of the EPL. It's been mooted since Celtic were crowned European champions in 1967, then finalists again in 1970, wiping the floor with a so called invincible Leeds side along the way. Not just Celtic though. Rangers and Aberdeen also enjoyed European success and Dundee Utd were also beaten finalists which shows what happens when you have great managers / coaches. I just can't get my head round the fact that Welsh teams are welcome yet Scottish teams are foreign.

I've no idea why David Cameron didn't offer this as a gesture when the referendum was looming and it was looking likely he would be the leader when the UK started to fragment. If nothing else comes of this post at least Zoony might make a rare appearance.😁

PS feel free to move this to Politics if it's too edgy for Sport.

[pxr5]

It won't happen. And it's not political either. Allowing Celtic, Rangers, Hearts, Hibs etc. into the English leagues would diminish the rest of Scottish football too much. There are a few clubs that provide most of the money there. Also where would they join? Premier league? No way, they would have to join at tier 7 or 8 and that would ruin them financially. I agree that Celtic and Rangers would eventually do quite well in the EPL with their support base though.

As for the Welsh clubs playing in England, Cardiff and Swansea were formed when there was no professional Welsh league so were allowed to play in England. Not the case for Scottish clubs at all.

[The Picnic Wasp]

I agree it most likely will never happen, but I can't agree with your reasoning. Scottish football would continue as usual without  any larger club(s) which might migrate. When Rangers went into liquidation and were subsequently relegated to the bottom tier, there was greater opportunity for the smaller clubs to compete, which to be honest must have been a breath of fresh and a greater reason to exist. If say, four larger clubs were to leave over a period of time those opportunities would be that much greater, perhaps even a chance to play in Europe usually denied decade in and decade out.

I don't think there has ever been a realistic expectation that any club would or should be invited to the top tier. That would be entirely unfair but I disagree that a move to a much lower league would ruin a club like Celtic. They are financially sound and would still be able to draw the best players from Scotland and maybe Ireland as well. I'm pretty sure a team of that standard could climb divisions fairly rapidly.

I have no great knowledge of Welsh football but aren't there further representations in the leagues. Newport (I think they're Welsh but might be wrong) and also a couple of other Welsh teams in the lower leagues. I'm afraid to say rather than for any business or geographical consideration it's more of an anti Scottish bias which will prevent it happening. It's a shame as when the EPL artificial financial bubble eventually pops, a couple of bigger clubs would probably improve things as sometimes when I look at the EPL fixture list, many of the games aren't all that exciting or glamorous.

[pxr5]

I really don't think it's anti Scottish at all. In fact Rangers and Celtic in the EPL would be most welcome. I'd love it as I imagine too would the EPL teams and more importantly the money men. But the amount of revenue that the other Scottish teams benefit currently from their games with Rangers and Celtic should not be underestimated. I'd imagine the quality of the Welsh football league is pretty poor, but imagine how much better they would be and the more money they'd make if Swansea and Cardiff moved from the English leagues back to Wales.

You mention the highlights of Scottish clubs in Europe which, though commendable, happened quite a while ago now and I'd argue that the overall standard of the Scottish leagues is much less now than it was back in the 70s.

Even if this was ever contemplated the only 2 clubs that would initially be considered for the English leagues would be Rangers and Celtic. But then where do you stop - next Hearts, Hibs - then Dundee Utd, Aberdeen? What state would the ones left in Scotland be in?

Nope I rather thinks it's the Scots and the Scottish FA that wouldn't want this to happen rather than anti Scottish sentiment from the English.

[The Picnic Wasp]

Quite heartening to read your feelings on it and I agree there could be some real benefits (and some baggage) but as the song said, it'll never work, because it will never be allowed to be. Celtic and Rangers are no great benefactors to Scottish football. The gate money is only to those in the same division and many of the grounds are very small capacities so no great shakes. The TV money is also peanuts when broken down and split. With regards to European success there have only been appearances in three finals in recent years with no wins. That's pretty much down to limited comparative spending power (and the appearance of a young manager called Mourinho). I'm not convinced English clubs would have fared a great deal better in the past thirty years without the ability to purchase the cream from Europe, Africa, Asia and South America. With regards to Swansea and Cardiff if they were forced to move to the Welsh league I doubt they would survive, at least not in their present form or scale as they don't have the safety net of total animosity for each other which is the driving force of revenue gathering for the Glasgow clubs. Partick Thistle are a  Glasgow club who are well loved and have small hard core following but they can't tap into the sectarian angle to boost turnover. The whole thing is out of shape, out of date and requires a revolution which is out of reach as that is how it has been decreed. A bit like that other great Scottish debate which is definitely not for this thread for fear of a two day ban (or worse)😁. I need my daily Wordle post to get my numbers up.😂

[Slim]

I've no idea why David Cameron didn't offer this as a gesture when the referendum was looming and it was looking likely he would be the leader when the UK started to fragment. If nothing else comes of this post at least Zoony might make a rare appearance.😁

I don't want to move this to the Politics section because it's an interesting discussion, so hopefully without being too contentious - I don't think it was even in David Cameron's gift to interfere in football politics like that, and actually I think it would have been counter-productive. It would have been spun as England stealing the best of Scottish football. It would have bolstered the case for independence, probably.

I think it would have caused quite a scandal.

It would have caused resentment in the English league, as well, unless the Old Firm clubs were to earn their place in the Premier League somehow. But how? Put them in the Championship and make them earn a place? I'm not 100% certain either of them would get out of the Championship.

[The Picnic Wasp]

My thinking has always been, and I think it has some merit, that the Glasgow clubs could go straight into League 2. If they were to finish first and second and thus disadvantage two out of the top three to be promoted, they could compensate those teams with sizeable sums, much more than the prize money would bring them. Similarly, amounts would be paid to those not able to gain entry to League 2 at the beginning of that same season of invitation. I realise this notion would require some tidying but it gives a sense of fairness at least in this form.

Much as it pains me to say this, Rangers reached the Europa League final last year, so I don't understand why anyone should think they would languish in The Championship, with Celtic being an even better standard of team. With every respect, perhaps English supporters have been fed this idea by the media as there might be subconscious bias in that industry. I might on the other hand just be a little over sensitive with regards to bias, as when following a game online recently Celtic scored a perfectly good goal. This was followed by a VAR check which seemed to last forever. When a supporter on the forum enquired what they were checking for, the answer came back "Catholicism".

Maybe that's the real issue, the baggage. Despite the UK's constitution having inbuilt unfairness and discrimination, England remains relatively free (or unaware) of a situation which should have been changed long ago, and perhaps the possible introduction of this unwelcome aspect of the Scottish game is too much of a risk to take.

[Blastzone]

As a Hearts fan , I do not think we would make it to the Premiership , nor would the Hibs and Aberdeen's of the world. Celtic and Rangers would in my opinion, particularly dining in the trough of the moneypit which allows the best of players to join even the most average of teams down there. I kind of enjoy our Scottish leagues , it is more grassroots and getting the odd wins against the ugly sisters of Glasgow, gives a great feeling .

[The Picnic Wasp]

Hearts and Hibs would probably only cause the baggage allowance to be exceeded in any case, as they suffer from a diluted case of the Glasgow clubs' unsavoury issues. I've always thought that if Celtic and Rangers left Scotland, the Scottish top flight would be a much more exciting, competitive and attractive product. I think the predictions that revenue would be badly affected are wrong.

Why would attendances fall if your club had a realistic prospect of winning silverware each year? I get that it's an inconsequential argument as the decision lies with a body which won't budge, but I'd prefer any discussion about it to be laid out in a more accurate and analytical form. I don't think that has been addressed at any time by those who have an interest in promoting or preventing it happening.

[dom]

Would the focus of football in Scotland not turn away from the Scottish League to the Premier league?  In general you would imagine there would be much more interest in Celtic's visit to Old Trafford than how Dundee United were doing against Aberdeen for example.

I'm not sure how important tv money is to Scottish football but it would undoubtedly shrink if its 2 biggest clubs weren't involved anymore. Sky only seem to show games involving 1 or both of the Old Firm from what I've noticed. I suppose that could be managed somewhat though by forcing the 2 Glasgow clubs to pay a proportion of their tv money to the Scottish league. (Perhaps as a condition to allow them to leave Scottish football). This would have the effect of making them less competitive in the Premier league though.

[The Picnic Wasp]

I think your interpretation of what the likely outcome might be is completely logical, however, Celtic and Rangers both attract a large number of supporters from all over the country (and also Ireland). Supporters buses leave from Aberdeen and elsewhere for most games. I think it's fair to say that the away game support of both clubs is probably the most troublesome in terms of less than acceptable chanting, and I don't think the clubs would be too upset if the distance to away fixtures increased, thus discouraging much of this travelling embarrassment.

Given that these further away fans come from cities such as Dundee, Inverness, Aberdeen and other provincial towns with top flight clubs, I would hope that they would turn their attention to their home club in reasonable numbers. I completely agree that clubs leaving for a better league should compensate those left behind out of the TV pot.

I'm fairly sure that anything they lose in that direction would more than be made up for by marketing strategies which the Premiership would provide. They are both clubs with an international following (very similar to Man Utd in this respect, and arguably with even greater potential). Australia is desperate to host a derby for example. Overall I think it's a real pity that it will never materialise and sorry to say my belief is that it's more to do with the majority English public opinion than anything else. Strange when you consider that Scotland is becoming considered more and more just a northern region rather than a true nation.

[pxr5]

Why do you think that it's English public opinion has anything to do with this? The average English person has little interest in Scotland and football fans even less so in Scottish football. I only have a passing interest in football north of the border as I lived in Scotland for a large part of my life which why this subject interests me to an extent. But ask the man in the street anywhere in England about this and they wouldn't have given this any thought at all; it's just not significant in any way.

[dom]

I'm not so sure about that. I think Celtic and Rangers would be a big draw in the Premier League. They would be right up there with Liverpool, United etc or perhaps a slight notch below until they established themselves. Certainly above the likes of Crystal Palace, Fulham, Brighton etc. And the away following would ensure a fantastic atmosphere.

[pxr5]

I'm not so sure about that. I think Celtic and Rangers would be a big draw in the Premier League. They would be right up there with Liverpool, United etc or perhaps a slight notch below until they established themselves. Certainly above the likes of Crystal Palace, Fulham, Brighton etc. And the away following would ensure a fantastic atmosphere.

I agree and I'd like Celtic and Rangers in the Premier League, but I really don't think the reason they aren't being considered for this is due to English opinion.

[The Picnic Wasp]

Why do you think that it's English public opinion has anything to do with this? The average English person has little interest in Scotland and football fans even less so in Scottish football. I only have a passing interest in football north of the border as I lived in Scotland for a large part of my life which why this subject interests me to an extent. But ask the man in the street anywhere in England about this and they wouldn't have given this any thought at all; it's just not significant in any way.

You're quite right, I worded that incorrectly. I should have made it clear that I was referring to English football followers'opinion, not that of the general public. It's only my personal opinion on this, and the only reinforcement I have to back this up is the fact that in my job before I retired I spoke to folk in English companies several times each day. As part of relationship building the natural instinct was to find common ground to discuss when the conversation was not business focused.  It certainly wouldn't be an exaggeration to say that football was discussed daily.

It was very natural and an easy way to break down barriers, especially as England has so many football teams. You couldn't miss really, unless the individual wasn't a particular fan. "Are you from Sheffield? Wednesday or United? Me? I'm a Celtic fan. How do you feel about us coming down every fortnight?" The opinion I garnered from my own little unofficial opinion poll is that it wasn't generally welcome. A fair few exceptions to that of course, but in the main my feeling was that many would rather we stay put. That's fair enough, it's your league and your business but to repeat myself I think it's a shame.