Religion and State Occasions

[Slim]

For me, easily the worst aspect of any state occasion - a royal wedding, the passing of a monarch - is the opportunity that it provides for religious figures to ram their idiot superstition down the throats of the populace. Fools like Justin Welby given a status as an authority figure to spout his delusional nonsense from the pulpit of Westminster Abbey, without fear of scrutiny or response, while a large TV audience watches on. It pisses me off mightily.

In recent days, apart from the tiresome "God Save the King" which I could overlook as a sort of mostly meaningless platitude, I've heard endless references to Liz and Phil being reunited, Charles himself telling us about "God", MPs taking their oath swearing by "Almighty God" in their oath of allegiance (I credit Starmer for not doing this although he did manage a "God Save the King" at the accession ceremony) and our new Head of State was asserted, officially, to have been given his role by "God" in every proclamation ceremony.

This is the sort of behaviour which, in a more enlightened society, ought to lead to the afflicted being confined in a padded cell pending appropriate psychiatric care.

We have to tolerate it. But we, the rational, should not be dissuaded from criticising or mocking it wherever we see it. Otherwise we'll have to put up with it forever.

[Fishy]

Agree with all that.. plus how much is all this costing us the tax payer.. we've still got another week of all this .. until next Monday when we eventually get to the funeral... appears to me to be an unnecessary and absurdly long time...

[Matt2112]

Imagine if "God" was replaced by "Zeus"; it would be thought of as utter batshittery. But in essence there's no difference whatsoever.

[The Picnic Wasp]

The trouble with secular states is that they are usually communist. There will be better read folk on here than me who will give examples of where this is not the case I suppose but a Godless society seems an empty place to me. My own faith swings wildly and more so the older I become but regardless of whom you attribute the quotations of Christ to, the New Testament does stand out as remarkable pieces of work from ancient times. I was taught by Jesuits, so yes I was indoctrinated at a young age, but even then I was struck that individuals amongst them had given up careers such as civil engineering to follow their vocation. I tend to focus on the most emotional words of Jesus, The Beatitudes, His private discussions with Peter with regards to his terrible future once He was gone, His words on the cross especially when questioning His own fate, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani". Also His humour which is totally overlooked. Towards the end of John's gospel when Jesus had hinted at how Peter might die, He also teased Peter that perhaps John might just hang around forever. Way off topic now and you guys definitely don't want to hear any of this but as a wise man once said on TNMS "each to his own", but I think he was taking the you know what and long may he continue to do so. It's a free country.

[Slim]

Every society is godless. It's just that some people aren't aware of it.

As for some secular states being communist, it's more the case isn't it that totalitarian states are secular? Because religion is a challenge to the absolute rigid authority that they exercise. And while you might see that as a good thing I only see it as a case of one indefensible system of authority being in competition with another.

I might point out though that some of the most brutal authoritarian regimes in all human history have been sustained and inspired by religious authority, see the Spanish Inquisition for an example.

And besides I'm most interested in truth. What separates us from animals, and also people who had to live in caves a few thousand years ago is our capacity to preserve and develop knowledge. It's why we have central heating, paracetomol, Tesco ready meals, guitars and MRI machines. Religious beliefs pollute our understanding of the universe around us.

[Matt2112]

I think there's possibly an incorrect equivocation here, with "secular" actually taken to mean "atheist". It doesn't.

The fundamental point of a secular society is not that it is, or should be, "godless"; it allows freedom of religious belief in any deity one chooses (even Zeus), and it also allows freedom from religious belief.

In practise this means those who profess belief do not get any special privileges and exemptions in law - which they certainly do have in the U.K. as things stand even if it doesn't have the malevolence of an absolute theocracy; and there are of course a few of those about, that manifest themselves grotesquely every single day.

[The Picnic Wasp]

Yes, these are all excellent arguments. Personally my life would have been a lot simpler on many occasions if I had lived in a fair minded secular society. I have been discriminated at interview, bullied at work and even assaulted due to an awareness of my religion. I can't agree with the point though that religion in itself is dangerous or corrupt but rather man's readiness to manipulate it to fit his own needs. The UK's constitution disappoints me. Surely it's time for us to unshackle ourselves from statements of division at least. The country is becoming increasingly atheist and I can foresee a time when our country may be at least more secular than it is today. Until that time comes and God is still involved in the process, shouldn't every person's faith be as valid as the next in the eyes of the state?

[dom]

Not sure how the Royal Family can exist without religion.  It's not quite the divine right of Kings any more but it's completely intertwined with religion.

Maybe there is a way.  Did Charles mention a while ago that he wouldn't be The Defender of The Faith but a Defender of Faiths?  An atheist may not agree but that surely is an improvement.  A loosening of the ties with the CofE at least.

[The Picnic Wasp]

Still can't take it in!

That Tesco ready meals got a mention under this heading.😂

[Nick]

900w for 3 mins. Long way from hunter gatherers and animistic gods.

[David L]

900w for 3 mins. Long way from hunter gatherers and animistic gods.

Takes some primal strength to remove some of that film though   

[Nick]

What amazes me as well is all the hangers on in their tights and finery, is that a full time job or do people dress up as a hobby?

[Slim]

Not sure how the Royal Family can exist without religion.  It's not quite the divine right of Kings any more but it's completely intertwined with religion.

Maybe there is a way.  Did Charles mention a while ago that he wouldn't be The Defender of The Faith but a Defender of Faiths?  An atheist may not agree but that surely is an improvement.  A loosening of the ties with the CofE at least.

I think it could exist without religion. When people who support the idea of a monarchy defend it, they usually cite continuity, constancy, separation of head of state and head of politics. Oh yes and tourism.

What they don't say usually say is that "God" has chosen the monarch personally. although I have the impression that Charles does think that.

I'm sure it would cause a right old stink if William announced that he didn't actually believe in "God". The Christian establishment would be up in arms about it. I suppose that's the reason that these beliefs are inculcated into them from a young age.

Charles' faith troubles me because he's a terrific example of someone being highly opinionated and stupid at the same time.

[The Picnic Wasp]

I don't know how religion could ever be eliminated from human need. We live in an incredible age of scientific enlightenment. The James Webb telescope now points the guess towards a universe of two trillion galaxies. I can't even begin to fathom the scale of our own galaxy. NP's voiceover at the beginning of the Exit video mentions the "what if" question. Despite our huge advancements in knowledge I don't think mankind will ever even scratch the surface of the mysteries we are a part of. Thinking about it this should be in the thread prior to this but I suppose it's all part and parcel of the same question to which there is no real answer. That's the reason I never argue with people about faith. Bizarrely, only the faithful might be able to win such an argument one day.

[The Picnic Wasp]

Strange the divisions even within Christianity itself that occasions like this highlight. Listening to The Lord's Prayer at the ceremony just now, where the additional Protestant ending is disputed.