Quote from: Slim on November 29, 2024, 11:57:21 AMInteresting discussion last night on LBC about the influence of religion in this and other issues. The question posed (paraphrasing) was: should MPs with a religious belief allow said belief to influence their decisions as legislators?

Simon Jenkins came on and he was quite angry about it; he found it "intolerable". Why should someone else's delusion be allowed to affect the freedoms of others? By all means if you're terminally ill feel free to suffer for as long as your sky fairy dictates; don't force suffering on others who don't share your fantasy.

My own view is that it's just unrealistic to expect MPs not to be guided by their faith; these ideas are just too deeply embedded in their heads. What's important though is that they should declare to their electors, as candidates, that they are likely to be led by a religion in their decision making. Then rational people can make an informed decision to do our very best to make sure these people are never allowed to get near any sort of legislative responsibility.

Good luck with that last sentence when they try to implement it in the west of Scotland. There really is an innocence about religion in England for the most part.

Quote from: Nickslikk2112 on November 29, 2024, 10:21:06 AM

Quote from: The Picnic Wasp on November 29, 2024, 02:42:45 AMWe called him Scunner at work as his second name was Campbell. Probably only Fishy might understand the nickname.

For reasons like Ali "UB40" Campbell being turned away from a Hotel?
https://www.standard.co.uk/showbiz/ub40-ali-campbell-turned-away-hotel-name-kew-the-music-london-gig-b1196937.html

QuoteI respected him because he did a job well below his ability for reasons he decided

You'd respect me then

The Scunner Campbell was the baddie in Super Gran. He was played by the actor Iain Cuthbertson.
I too was in an unrewarding job for nearly my entire working life. Circumstances dictated. Good song though.😀

Was just thinking as I make my way to bed at a ridiculous hour, that as perhaps two of us (maybe less) approach Advent, maybe we should remember that we are all friends on here. Belittling descriptions such as, sects, sky fairies and misplaced scriptural references such as bearing false witness may seem like a harmless poke in the ribs in support of the overwhelmingly growing world population of non believers, who think that the elimination of religion will stop war, famine and the inevitable totalitarian Chinese State Of Earth And Its Satellites. Be nice, cycle if you must, listen to Rush (old and new are both good). Put up the tree and try not to cry when suddenly the whole thing reminds you of what it really means to be human.

Late Edit: My favourite atheist, Christopher Hitchens when interviewed  drunkenly, told of the time he horrified Richard Dawkins, saying that if he had convinced the entire world that there was no God and only one believer remained, he wouldn't attempt to to convince him. Wonderful man. Probably the only real testament of pre deathbed faith ever broadcast by such intellect in a time before his cancer diagnosis. As I've always said and thought, if it's good enough for Boris and Chris, it's good enough for me.

More accurately last night. After a week of grim temperatures, windy conditions, alternating driving rain and generally typical premature Scottish winter weather, double glazing salesmen, paroxysmal atrial fibrillation (fortunately brief) and annoying car stuff, I decided to break my lager abstinence of the past few weeks. Sister is staying over just now so kindly drove me to the local convenience store. Bought beer (the clean golden variety which doesn't form mycelium and fruiting bodies in your gut) a bottle of Merlot for sis, a packet of cheddars and a couple of dog treats. It all came to £21.12 😀

Yesterday my sister gave me a litre bottle of Baileys to put away for Christmas. She always does this and always replaces it later after it's been plundered too early. I opened it tonight as I heard this afternoon that a former work colleague dropped dead today. A couple of years older than me and a decent guy with a lovely family. We called him Scunner at work as his second name was Campbell. Probably only Fishy might understand the nickname. I respected him because he did a job well below his ability for reasons he decided, but he did that job really well which reminds me of the NP lyric "pride of purpose, in the unrewarding job". So a hero I suppose, if any of us really are. RIP Ian.

I suppose this is more a what made UP your day type post, so another Baileys in his honour, some Porcupine Tree live and bed.

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Quote from: Slim on November 27, 2024, 11:05:47 PM

Quote from: The Picnic Wasp on November 27, 2024, 08:21:20 PMI believe it was called Aktion T4. Granted there weren't any options available to the recipients but the results wouldn't be any different to the UK government's considerations. The society our generation was born into is collapsing at such a rate that the current proposals would quickly degenerate into something much more monstrous. Our population appears to me to be much more callous these days. If this becomes law we can't go back, therefore there's only one direction such activity will go in.

Also, with regards to doctors glowing with pride, I think if you spoke to your average vet they would agree that it is the worst part of their job and probably something they try to blot out as much as possible. Personally, I've never allowed an animal to suffer and any pets we have lost through euthanasia involved only feelings of dread and grief. I get what you mean but I think you chose the incorrect words which is rather unexpected.

Well I had to look it up but Aktion T4 doesn't appear to have been the same thing at all. I think it's a lurid comparison that just doesn't apply here.

I think it's two entirely different forms of government who may both go down in history as licensing the killing of human beings who are not criminals. We'll never agree on this.

Quote from: Slim on November 27, 2024, 04:40:55 PM

Quote from: The Picnic Wasp on November 27, 2024, 03:49:09 PM

Quote from: Slim on November 27, 2024, 02:42:41 PMLucy Letby, even if she's guilty which I doubt, could have worked in any number of professions where she could have killed people. A committee overseeing assisted dying practice would be a poor choice of career for a psychopath in my view, because she wouldn't take those decisions alone and the victims generally want to kill themselves in the first place.

If you gave that patient nitrogen instead of oxygen they would survive for a short period, then experience a state of euphoria and then die. But you are directly killing that person. Should anyone in our medical profession retire in a couple of decades from now with the fact they turned on that tap dozens or hundreds of times recorded on their notes? Macabre in the extreme. The stuff of Nazi governments and the like.

I don't know if the Nazis had an ethically managed assisted dying programme intended to alleviate the suffering of the terminally ill at their own option, but if they did that could only be to their credit.

Not every terminally ill person can have a comfortable and peaceful death, even with attentive palliative care - or so I understand from a discussion on 5 Live involving a physician a few days ago.

As for a retired medical professional, looking back over his career with the knowledge that they had compassionately minimised the suffering of dozens, or hundreds of helpless people who might otherwise have suffered a painful or protracted death, in line with their own wishes - how could he or she not glow with pride and contentment in that knowledge?

I believe it was called Aktion T4. Granted there weren't any options available to the recipients but the results wouldn't be any different to the UK government's considerations. The society our generation was born into is collapsing at such a rate that the current proposals would quickly degenerate into something much more monstrous. Our population appears to me to be much more callous these days. If this becomes law we can't go back, therefore there's only one direction such activity will go in.
Also, with regards to doctors glowing with pride, I think if you spoke to your average vet they would agree that it is the worst part of their job and probably something they try to blot out as much as possible. Personally, I've never allowed an animal to suffer and any pets we have lost through euthanasia involved only feelings of dread and grief. I get what you mean but I think you chose the incorrect words which is rather unexpected.

Quote from: Slim on November 27, 2024, 02:42:41 PMLucy Letby, even if she's guilty which I doubt, could have worked in any number of professions where she could have killed people. A committee overseeing assisted dying practice would be a poor choice of career for a psychopath in my view, because she wouldn't take those decisions alone and the victims generally want to kill themselves in the first place.

I accept Lucy Letby is a poor example to suggest. Just a bit of tabloid behaviour on my part, but I do like part of one of the sentences you used, James, "A committee overseeing assisted dying practice would be a poor choice of career". For anyone. How could you ever sufficiently analyse the intellectual workings, mentality and conscience of those elected for such a position. Nick made the point earlier of if you want to do it, do it yourself which I understand even though I have personal beliefs which contradict suicide as an option. I just can't ever align myself with the possibility of humans given the authority to extinguish human life. We all know that this happens to a degree at the moment.

Morphine administration in increasing dosages is routinely used to reduce consciousness to minimum levels in an attempt to improve the comfort of the dying. It's horrible and a dreadful experience for patient and loved ones but it is measurable, controllable and as ethical as it is possible for it to be. If you gave that patient nitrogen instead of oxygen they would survive for a short period, then experience a state of euphoria and then die. But you are directly killing that person. Should anyone in our medical profession retire in a couple of decades from now with the fact they turned on that tap dozens or hundreds of times recorded on their notes? Macabre in the extreme. The stuff of Nazi governments and the like.

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We're a strange lot us Brits. We are considering doctors being permitted legally to euthanise patients and yet when our police force make a split second decision to shoot a dangerous criminal we consider charging them with murder.

No, we have to have a health service which we can all safely assume will always do everything to preserve life. What happens if this becomes law and the consultant tells you that something is inoperable, incurable or some other unfathomable medical equation of facts which you don't understand? We have to be able to believe these people without question. They can't be driven by accountants dishing out instructions from some bookmaker's spreadsheet. When will the Hippocratic oath be withdrawn? At present I would think that doctors are drawn to the profession for the right reasons for the most part. That might change if power becomes a selling point.

Quote from: captainkurtz on November 25, 2024, 08:57:30 AMI'd say yes, but it needs to be very heavily monitored and regulated.

How would you go about determining that there wasn't a Lucy Letby type on the decisions panel? That's of course based on the assumption that the jury was correct.

Quote from: Slim on November 25, 2024, 09:03:30 AMOne significant thing about this for me is that the opposition to it seems to a large degree to be on religious grounds. To be fair, it isn't being framed that way necessarily but the fact that dissent about it seems to have coalesced around religious authority figures is a bit of a red flag.

I mean - there are non-religious arguments on both sides but I'm never going to be swayed by an argument that's ultimately predicated on the existience of a sky fairy.

Wrong thread for the debate I am aware, but topics such as this and every new, catastrophic news story that comes our way leads me towards my increasing belief that the symbolism within the Book Of Revelation being a certainty. I may not be the smartest visitor to this site but I'm definitely of sufficient intelligence to weigh up any evidence on offer with regards to the likelihood or otherwise of such possibilities. To me the likelihood is so strong now that it's harder to ignore than accept.