Quote from: David L on December 09, 2023, 02:03:29 PM

Quote from: Slim on December 09, 2023, 01:35:55 PMWell firstly I don't agree that there seems to be a "collusion" between various governments to suppress information, that's pure conspiracy theory territory. Tin foil hat stuff.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/27/covid-monitoring-disinformation-unit-us-government-online/

If JHB was subjected to this, I'm certain others, including experts in their field, that critiqued the government narrative were

OK. So governments collaborated to raise awareness about sources of disinformation like JHB. I'm pleased to hear it, and it's a million miles from the suppression of legitimate expert opinion.

Quote from: Slim on December 09, 2023, 04:24:26 PM

Quote from: David L on December 09, 2023, 02:03:29 PM

Quote from: Slim on December 09, 2023, 01:35:55 PMWell firstly I don't agree that there seems to be a "collusion" between various governments to suppress information, that's pure conspiracy theory territory. Tin foil hat stuff.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/27/covid-monitoring-disinformation-unit-us-government-online/

If JHB was subjected to this, I'm certain others, including experts in their field, that critiqued the government narrative were

OK. So governments collaborated to raise awareness about sources of disinformation like JHB. I'm pleased to hear it, and it's a million miles from the suppression of legitimate expert opinion.

Quote from: David L on December 09, 2023, 02:10:26 PM

Quote from: Slim on December 09, 2023, 01:35:55 PMI'd be interested to see some (credible) evidence of the various experts being censored in the Western democratic countries. In other countries that goes on all the time, I agree.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/commentisfree/2022/mar/29/how-do-you-stop-fake-news-about-covid-not-by-silencing-scientists-who-ask-difficult-questions

https://truthtalk.uk/2022/mass-censorship-twitter-bans-renowned-diagnostic-pathologist-dr-clare-craig/

https://www.congress.gov/118/meeting/house/115286/documents/HHRG-118-GO00-20230208-SD011.pdf

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/10/12/why-has-google-censored-the-great-barrington-declaration/

The first three are Twitter bans. Which of the "governments around the world" that you refer to in #551 owns Twitter or insisted that they do this?

The last one was done by Google, and I don't doubt in good faith. Which of the "governments around the world" made them do this, please?

Quote from: David L on December 09, 2023, 04:29:05 PM

Or put differently: you have no answer.

Quote from: David L on December 09, 2023, 01:16:10 PMAlso worth remembering that the opinions of many experts in this field were censored (thus limiting conjecture) by governments around the world, seemingly in collusion.

QFT

Quote from: Slim on December 09, 2023, 04:30:19 PM

Quote from: David L on December 09, 2023, 02:10:26 PM

Quote from: Slim on December 09, 2023, 01:35:55 PMI'd be interested to see some (credible) evidence of the various experts being censored in the Western democratic countries. In other countries that goes on all the time, I agree.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/commentisfree/2022/mar/29/how-do-you-stop-fake-news-about-covid-not-by-silencing-scientists-who-ask-difficult-questions

https://truthtalk.uk/2022/mass-censorship-twitter-bans-renowned-diagnostic-pathologist-dr-clare-craig/

https://www.congress.gov/118/meeting/house/115286/documents/HHRG-118-GO00-20230208-SD011.pdf

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/10/12/why-has-google-censored-the-great-barrington-declaration/

The first three are Twitter bans. Which of the "governments around the world" that you refer to in #551 owns Twitter or insisted that they do this?

https://reason.com/2023/01/02/under-government-pressure-twitter-suppressed-truthful-speech-about-covid-19/

https://www.wsj.com/articles/white-house-covid-censorship-machine-social-media-facebook-meta-executive-rob-flaherty-free-speech-google-11673203704

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/07/04/joe-biden-white-house-accused-covid-vaccine-censorship/

Quote from: Slim on December 09, 2023, 04:30:19 PM

Quote from: David L on December 09, 2023, 02:10:26 PM

Quote from: Slim on December 09, 2023, 01:35:55 PMI'd be interested to see some (credible) evidence of the various experts being censored in the Western democratic countries. In other countries that goes on all the time, I agree.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/commentisfree/2022/mar/29/how-do-you-stop-fake-news-about-covid-not-by-silencing-scientists-who-ask-difficult-questions

https://truthtalk.uk/2022/mass-censorship-twitter-bans-renowned-diagnostic-pathologist-dr-clare-craig/

https://www.congress.gov/118/meeting/house/115286/documents/HHRG-118-GO00-20230208-SD011.pdf

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/10/12/why-has-google-censored-the-great-barrington-declaration/

The last one was done by Google, and I don't doubt in good faith. Which of the "governments around the world" made them do this, please?

https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/white-house-worked-youtube-censor-covid-19-vaccine-misinformation-house-judiciary-committee

Quote from: Slim on December 09, 2023, 04:30:47 PM

Quote from: David L on December 09, 2023, 04:29:05 PM

Or put differently: you have no answer.

Quote from: Slim on December 09, 2023, 04:24:26 PMOK. So governments collaborated to raise awareness about sources of disinformation like JHB. I'm pleased to hear it, and it's a million miles from the suppression of legitimate expert opinion.

But they got that wrong, didn't they? 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12677877/Cabinet-Office-forced-apologise-Julia-Hartley-Brewer-government-documents-unlawfully-TalkTV-presenter-known-vaccine-sceptic.html

Quote from: David L on December 09, 2023, 05:47:18 PM

Quote from: Slim on December 09, 2023, 04:24:26 PMOK. So governments collaborated to raise awareness about sources of disinformation like JHB. I'm pleased to hear it, and it's a million miles from the suppression of legitimate expert opinion.

But they got that wrong, didn't they? 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12677877/Cabinet-Office-forced-apologise-Julia-Hartley-Brewer-government-documents-unlawfully-TalkTV-presenter-known-vaccine-sceptic.html

Yes, they thought she was a vaccine sceptic, when to her credit, she wasn't.

That doesn't support your point that legitimate export opinion was suppressed, one tiny iota.

Quote from: David L on December 09, 2023, 05:34:30 PM

Quote from: Slim on December 09, 2023, 04:30:19 PM

Quote from: David L on December 09, 2023, 02:10:26 PM

Quote from: Slim on December 09, 2023, 01:35:55 PMI'd be interested to see some (credible) evidence of the various experts being censored in the Western democratic countries. In other countries that goes on all the time, I agree.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/commentisfree/2022/mar/29/how-do-you-stop-fake-news-about-covid-not-by-silencing-scientists-who-ask-difficult-questions

https://truthtalk.uk/2022/mass-censorship-twitter-bans-renowned-diagnostic-pathologist-dr-clare-craig/

https://www.congress.gov/118/meeting/house/115286/documents/HHRG-118-GO00-20230208-SD011.pdf

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/10/12/why-has-google-censored-the-great-barrington-declaration/

The first three are Twitter bans. Which of the "governments around the world" that you refer to in #551 owns Twitter or insisted that they do this?

https://reason.com/2023/01/02/under-government-pressure-twitter-suppressed-truthful-speech-about-covid-19/

https://www.wsj.com/articles/white-house-covid-censorship-machine-social-media-facebook-meta-executive-rob-flaherty-free-speech-google-11673203704

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/07/04/joe-biden-white-house-accused-covid-vaccine-censorship/

Quote from: Slim on December 09, 2023, 04:30:19 PM

Quote from: David L on December 09, 2023, 02:10:26 PM

Quote from: Slim on December 09, 2023, 01:35:55 PMI'd be interested to see some (credible) evidence of the various experts being censored in the Western democratic countries. In other countries that goes on all the time, I agree.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/commentisfree/2022/mar/29/how-do-you-stop-fake-news-about-covid-not-by-silencing-scientists-who-ask-difficult-questions

https://truthtalk.uk/2022/mass-censorship-twitter-bans-renowned-diagnostic-pathologist-dr-clare-craig/

https://www.congress.gov/118/meeting/house/115286/documents/HHRG-118-GO00-20230208-SD011.pdf

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/10/12/why-has-google-censored-the-great-barrington-declaration/

The last one was done by Google, and I don't doubt in good faith. Which of the "governments around the world" made them do this, please?

https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/white-house-worked-youtube-censor-covid-19-vaccine-misinformation-house-judiciary-committee

What you've shown there is that the US government worked with YouTube do target disinformation. Given that this was in the interest of the public health, it's the least the American public should expect.

What you haven't shown is that legitimate, credible expert opinion was censored by any government, still less that different governments "colluded" to do this.

Quote from: Slim on December 09, 2023, 12:40:24 PM

Quote from: The Picnic Wasp on December 09, 2023, 11:42:29 AMI'm not sure about this. From my rudimentary knowledge of illnesses, they seem to follow a fairly regular pattern when an individual becomes infected. The seemingly random nature of COVID seems to point towards some kind of crack-handed, genetic tinkering. Almost as if the virus had to evolve from an unstable man-made structure into something which could survive in the natural world.

It's reasonable to have an opinion when it is, after all, a matter of conjecture. But I have to assume that the various infectious disease experts and academic virologists had thought about that as well, and it's notable that they tend to reject the "man-made" hypothesis.

In any case I don't see the "random" nature of the virus as very surprising; for many years (millenia?) the flu virus (for example) has evolved and changed unpredictably from year to year.

My meaning was that the virus had more of a random effect patient to patient, rather than a general shift in overall symptoms variant to variant, like 'flu.

Quote from: Slim on December 09, 2023, 06:46:36 PMWhat you haven't shown is that legitimate, credible expert opinion was censored by any government

https://nypost.com/2023/09/20/how-dr-jay-bhattacharya-beat-biden-administration-censorship/

Quote from: David L on December 09, 2023, 07:38:16 PM

Quote from: Slim on December 09, 2023, 06:46:36 PMWhat you haven't shown is that legitimate, credible expert opinion was censored by any government

https://nypost.com/2023/09/20/how-dr-jay-bhattacharya-beat-biden-administration-censorship/

While I'm sure you consider Bhattacharya's opinion to be credible yourself, that's not necessarily a view held by others.



https://www.salon.com/2022/12/16/why-elon-musk-and-right-wing-pundits-are-cheering-a-doctor-with-questionable-vaccine-views/

No-one should be surprised when a responsible government suppresses harmful misinformation where a matter of public health is concerned.

Found anything on your claim that "collusion" between the world's governments to censor (non-crank) expert opinion took place, yet?

Quote from: Slim on December 10, 2023, 07:36:39 PM

Quote from: David L on December 09, 2023, 07:38:16 PM

Quote from: Slim on December 09, 2023, 06:46:36 PMWhat you haven't shown is that legitimate, credible expert opinion was censored by any government

https://nypost.com/2023/09/20/how-dr-jay-bhattacharya-beat-biden-administration-censorship/

While I'm sure you consider Bhattacharya's opinion to be credible yourself, that's not necessarily a view held by others.



https://www.salon.com/2022/12/16/why-elon-musk-and-right-wing-pundits-are-cheering-a-doctor-with-questionable-vaccine-views/

No-one should be surprised when a responsible government suppresses harmful misinformation   where a matter of public health is concerned.

Found anything on your claim that "collusion" between the world's governments to censor (non-crank) expert opinion took place, yet?

"My expert is more credible than your expert!" 
It's pretty easy to find evidence of disagreenets of opinion between experts. And we know who makes the decision on what is misinformation.

Was it ever acknowledged that the claim that vaccines would prevent transmission or that masks ever worked against Covid was health misinformation?

Quote from: David L on December 10, 2023, 08:57:27 PMIt's pretty easy to find evidence of disagreenets of opinion between experts. And we know who makes the decision on what is misinformation.

Was it ever acknowledged that the claim that vaccines would prevent transmission or that masks ever worked against Covid was health misinformation?

Nope. Because it wasn't misinformation in either case, and the fact that you believe it was really underlines the need to keep this sort of bollocks in check.