Rush bassist and singer Geddy Lee has announced a run of spoken word live dates for the UK throughout December.
Lee will release his long-awaited memoir My Effin' Life through Harper Collins on November 14 and his run of Geddy Lee In Conversation live dates will feature Lee reading key passages from his the book; he will then share thoughts and stories taken from his experience with a guest interviewer. Furthermore, fans will then have the chance to participate in a special Q&A, with Geddy Lee answering their questions directly.
https://www.loudersound.com/news/geddy-lee-announces-uk-spoken-word-tour-for-december?fbclid=IwAR0KfCqw_YgLPObjdjoo4gy4y88avT3buqcUQsRT7wzNfwp9jQjul9QaXmA
Dec 10: Wolverhampton The Civic At The Halls
Dec 13: Sheffield City Hall
Dec 14: Glasgow Royal Concert Hall
Dec 17: Portsmouth Guildhall
Dec 18: London Barbican
Me: Geddy, where do you stand on Old Rush Good, New Rush Bad?
Will he bring Alex?
Blablablablablablabla
Blablabla
Bla
Blablablabla
Just looked at Ticket prices for Sheffield:
PRICE
£76.50 - £125.95
My Effin Life am I paying that!!!!!!
That's just admission? No signed book with that?
Ludicrous.
Quote from: Thenop on September 22, 2023, 05:36:17 PMThat's just admission? No signed book with that?
Ludicrous.
There's a book, but not signed.
He'll be lucky to fill those places to 25% at those prices
I don't think they've factored in that many of his fans are now state pension age.😂 Seriously though, seems a bit steep considering there can't be many to pay in his entourage. I'll probably still go as it will be easier on the eyes and ears than a proper gig.
Dates are most inconvenient. Hope more are announced. :-\
Would rather hear him talk than sing tbh..
What a shame Newcastle City Hall isn't on the list, I think it would be quite emotional.
In for the Glasgow night.
Quote from: Red Lenses on September 25, 2023, 04:07:12 AMIn for the Glasgow night.
I've only been to the Royal Concert Hall three times. The Pearlfishers (band), Brian May and Peter Frampton, but I really like the venue. Rush playing there would have been the stuff of fantasy.
I'm still agog at the prices...
Quote from: captainkurtz on September 25, 2023, 03:11:17 PMI'm still agog at the prices...
And how much are they going for.. I may make a half hearted attempt at getting some Glasgow tixs...
Make it one sixteenth hearted at best: £73.92 - £124.32
https://www.glasgowconcerthalls.com/Pages/EventDetail.aspx?event=1/geddy-lee-my-effin-life
Quote from: captainkurtz on September 25, 2023, 03:11:17 PMI'm still agog at the prices...
Out of order for a book promo, really. Bit disrespectful to his audience. Should be free.
Big Money got no soul :-\
Quote from: Slim on September 25, 2023, 09:27:49 PMQuote from: captainkurtz on September 25, 2023, 03:11:17 PMI'm still agog at the prices...
Out of order for a book promo, really. Bit disrespectful to his audience. Should be free.
He should be paying us to attend.. terrible time of year as well
Too far for me, 300 mile round trip to Wolverhampton, the closest gig.
Well, decision time tonight. Do I buy a nice limited edition Fender guitar case I have my eye on, or do I blow most of that amount of cash on a close to Christmas bletherfest, in a place where Covid will no doubt be lurking again? I would like to go but I am slightly offended by the ticket prices. It does feel a little bit like squeezing those remaining few drops out of a legendary loyal fan base. I have a hunch that Alex might also show his face which adds to the quandary.
Get a guitar case.
I don't think Alex will go. Why would he?
More likely to get flu but the outcomes of that may be unpleasant also.
Yep, a good, sturdy guitar case looks the call.
Quote from: captainkurtz on September 28, 2023, 06:51:06 PMI don't think Alex will go. Why would he?
Could warm up the audience with his stand up routine :-\
Quote from: captainkurtz on September 28, 2023, 06:51:06 PMI don't think Alex will go. Why would he?
My memory might be playing tricks but I seem to recall him interviewing Geddy during his Big Beautiful Book Of Bass promotion. Think he said something like it would be good to throw at people.
Edit: Maybe he could sell jars of mustard in the foyer.
Quote from: David L on September 28, 2023, 07:56:52 PMQuote from: captainkurtz on September 28, 2023, 06:51:06 PMI don't think Alex will go. Why would he?
Could warm up the audience with his stand up routine :-\
They'd probably welcome a warm up act as I can imagine it being quite draughty in that big hall.
I wouldn't be surprised if Philip Wilding will be employed by Geddy in the same way he was on the Big Book of Bass tour
£243 for 2 tixs.. nah fuck all that..
He's actually coming to these venues to sell you something. Mind-blowing that you have to pay for that, really.
On the other hand if people are prepared to pay it, that's how the world goes round. Good business.
Quite a sad thing today, not to be online at 10.00 am buying a ticket for a Glasgow Geddy Lee event.
Gene Simmons:
"That's m'boy!"
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Looked at the seat maps at a couple of venues. Mildly tempted for a few moments I'll admit, but then I saw sense: there are good seats at West End musicals that are cheaper.
I am actually glad he's not doing the mainland. Saves me the headache of deciding whether to go.
But.. Why is he not doing the mainland?
I tempted, the thought of going back to Wolverhampton and seeing him talk there is quite appealing. I was a student there back in the 80s and the thought then of him being there to give a speech nearly 40 years later would have amazed me
Had a check again at Glasgow tixs and got offered the same as yesterday in the stalls row F.. wonder if sales aren't going so well.. still not buying them...
Quote from: Fishy on September 30, 2023, 04:15:14 PMHad a check again at Glasgow tixs and got offered the same as yesterday in the stalls row F.. wonder if sales aren't going so well.. still not buying them...
what's the capacity?
Quote from: Thenop on September 30, 2023, 06:31:17 PMQuote from: Fishy on September 30, 2023, 04:15:14 PMHad a check again at Glasgow tixs and got offered the same as yesterday in the stalls row F.. wonder if sales aren't going so well.. still not buying them...
what's the capacity?
About 47...
Quote from: Thenop on September 30, 2023, 06:31:17 PMQuote from: Fishy on September 30, 2023, 04:15:14 PMHad a check again at Glasgow tixs and got offered the same as yesterday in the stalls row F.. wonder if sales aren't going so well.. still not buying them...
what's the capacity?
Just under 2,500. I had a quick nosey at availability late yesterday and was offered a low number row G. Doesn't look like they're selling quickly. I'd still like to go but I can't really justify it to myself. If I go it wouldn't be just me, so two tickets, a couple of pubs, a meal plus travel and it's probably the thick edge of £350. That's insane money for an interview with Q&A. Might make my question on the night quite interesting if I change my mind, but I don't think my emailed query would make the cut.😁
I'd probably go to the Wolverhampton one if it was Alex.
I wouldn't even go if it was an evening with Neil and Derek Acorah...
Quote from: The Picnic Wasp on September 30, 2023, 08:54:49 PMMight make my question on the night quite interesting if I change my mind, but I don't think my emailed query would make the cut.😁
"What's your favourite colour?"
In for Glasgow, don't know where i'm sitting as I didn't get the tickets (5 of us going).
Looking at the Instagram post about this on Geddy's official channel, there are a lot of people complaining about the ticket price. I think the money he gains from this will cost him a bit of respect.
Quote from: Nickslikk2112 on September 30, 2023, 09:45:03 PMI wouldn't even go if it was an evening with Neil and Derek Acorah...
I think I'm with you on that one.
Had another look.. even after a bottle and half of red wine I wasn't tempted
Ask Geddy a question in the Guardian
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2023/oct/27/post-your-questions-for-rush-frontman-geddy-lee?fbclid=IwAR1gA8duDrb9FUbneuv4bCK_DvdTHQEOwQWEuEFduxr6Gv7EYci3pL4BmfY
Quote from: Nick on October 27, 2023, 08:01:19 PMAsk Geddy a question in the Guardian
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2023/oct/27/post-your-questions-for-rush-frontman-geddy-lee?fbclid=IwAR1gA8duDrb9FUbneuv4bCK_DvdTHQEOwQWEuEFduxr6Gv7EYci3pL4BmfY
Do you really read this shite?
I see there's a comment there by a certain BaldiePete!
Tempted to sign up for a Grauniad account just so I can post a question.
Quote from: Slim on October 27, 2023, 08:42:18 PMI see there's a comment there by a certain BaldiePete!
Tempted to sign up for a Grauniad account just so I can post a question.
I did :-[
Also one from Nephronic
The food section is always a good non political read.
Quote from: Slim on October 27, 2023, 08:49:29 PMQuote from: Slim on October 27, 2023, 08:42:18 PMI see there's a comment there by a certain BaldiePete!
Temted to sign up for a Grauniad account just so I can post a question.
I did :-[
Why are the ticket prices so ridiculously high MrLee ?
Tour began last night. I wonder if much will appear on YouTube.
Watched a short piece just now. It's quite emotional. I'll leave it alone now. I'm still having the self debate about whether I should go. All the good seats will be gone now no doubt, and I'd be at the back where my double vision is at its most troublesome.
Serves me right!
Quote from: The Picnic Wasp on November 14, 2023, 11:30:11 AMWatched a short piece just now. It's quite emotional. I'll leave it alone now. I'm still having the self debate about whether I should go. All the good seats will be gone now no doubt, and I'd be at the back where my double vision is at its most troublesome.
Serves me right!
More than one Geddy! Just like the later albums!
Quote from: The Picnic Wasp on November 14, 2023, 11:30:11 AMWatched a short piece just now. It's quite emotional. I'll leave it alone now. I'm still having the self debate about whether I should go. All the good seats will be gone now no doubt, and I'd be at the back where my double vision is at its most troublesome.
Serves me right!
Just wait for the Blu Ray...
It appears there's no need for a Facebook account to read this review. Note the part on the stage being high enough Mr. Wasp. you'd have a decent view a bit further back.
https://www.facebook.com/RushCon/posts/pfbid03GXQ98tB1rGG5Y2SJED2wFjw1SdN7sW1rBucTsoDJTtLJgWeKCBm8ANUV8NY5svrl
Thanks for that. Quite an interesting read.
^^ Thanks for the link Thenop. I wonder who else will be doing the interviews, might be Paul Rudd for the whole lot lol.
Quote from: Thenop on November 14, 2023, 02:00:15 PMIt appears there's no need for a Facebook account to read this review. Note the part on the stage being high enough Mr. Wasp. you'd have a decent view a bit further back.
https://www.facebook.com/RushCon/posts/pfbid03GXQ98tB1rGG5Y2SJED2wFjw1SdN7sW1rBucTsoDJTtLJgWeKCBm8ANUV8NY5svrl
Thanks for that... don't think I'm missing out on much by not going tbh..
Geddy is all over YouTube at the moment. I've watched a few snippets of the limited nights so far, so I must be subconsciously trying not to spoil it for myself should I decide to go. I think by the time December rolls round I might be tired listening to these stories if I watch any more.
Yeah some of the clips I've seen have been about Glasgow Apollo and a Manchester gig with Alex getting wasted on brandy
Are the 2 new(old) songs available yet?
Quote from: Nick on November 16, 2023, 08:14:55 PMAre the 2 new(old) songs available yet?
I believe they're on the audiobook now, and will be available for download at a later date.
https://youtu.be/iV2QcaAJ2vk
Here's an hour plus from philly
Quote from: Fishy on November 17, 2023, 12:56:40 PMhttps://youtu.be/iV2QcaAJ2vk
Here's an hour plus from philly
Is it right to feel as guilty as I do, watching this? :-\
Surely his 'people' will get this removed ???
Quote from: David L on November 17, 2023, 04:59:44 PMQuote from: Fishy on November 17, 2023, 12:56:40 PMhttps://youtu.be/iV2QcaAJ2vk
Here's an hour plus from philly
Is it right to feel as guilty as I do, watching this? :-\
Surely his 'people' will get this removed ???
I'm just thinking of the money I'm saving watching all these clips..
Quote from: Fishy on November 17, 2023, 05:17:01 PMQuote from: David L on November 17, 2023, 04:59:44 PMQuote from: Fishy on November 17, 2023, 12:56:40 PMhttps://youtu.be/iV2QcaAJ2vk
Here's an hour plus from philly
Is it right to feel as guilty as I do, watching this? :-\
Surely his 'people' will get this removed ???
I'm just thinking of the money I'm saving watching all these clips..
I suppose I shouldn't worry about a millionaire rock star. And it's been my cash that helped make his fortune.
However, I'm bit conflicted. If I watch this, will it spoil the book for me?
Quote from: David L on November 17, 2023, 05:50:41 PMQuote from: Fishy on November 17, 2023, 05:17:01 PMQuote from: David L on November 17, 2023, 04:59:44 PMQuote from: Fishy on November 17, 2023, 12:56:40 PMhttps://youtu.be/iV2QcaAJ2vk
Here's an hour plus from philly
Is it right to feel as guilty as I do, watching this? :-\
Surely his 'people' will get this removed ???
I'm just thinking of the money I'm saving watching all these clips..
I suppose I shouldn't worry about a millionaire rock star. And it's been my cash that helped make his fortune.
However, I'm bit conflicted. If I watch this, will it spoil the book for me?
Probably as he reads some bits of the book out during the course of the clip..
Interview by the people for the people
https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2023/nov/16/rush-geddy-lee-reader-interview
https://youtu.be/jdNsPpaCZ1I
Cleveland
Right, had not thought about this but just saw a pic of the merch stand. Yes, that's right, a merch stand and it's not selling books - you get a copy upon entry apparently. Which is, by the way, a great way to boost book sales. I cannot imagine people not buying it up front, and then you egt another copy. There must be at least 50K or maybe more people visiting this tour, so that puts him in a very good position sales wise. But I digress..
SO there's a merch stand and they sell posters for USD20 & what looks to be a print for 40. Well that might make sense, a framed pic for on your wall, why not.
But wait, there's caps! Black with some form of logo I cannot fully see. 40 bucks (!) and shirts, one with print on the front and the dates on the back...45 bucks! So you go there, buy a shirt, go to work wearing it and your colleague says "cool, what band did you see" and you go:" No I watched a guy reading a passage from his book".
And of course, there a shirt with a huge print of the book cover. I mean...really..
(I can't figure out how to post the pic from my Ipad though - sorry).
TBF, there hasn't been been a new pinball machine along in ages, and they still haven't released any ketchup or pickled onions yet.😂
I love the man with every fibre of my being, but I wouldn't wear one of those T-shirts if my life depended on it...
Quote from: captainkurtz on November 26, 2023, 05:11:02 PMI love the man with every fibre of my being, but I wouldn't wear one of those T-shirts if my life depended on it...
The only justifiable portrait shirt I'd wear is Lemmy's.
I suppose the very fact that we're discussing this online is the very reason why artists have to ply their trade this way these days. Pre internet and streaming, Geddy and Alex would have released a studio album at some point and made a tidy sum. Now it's tour and tat.
Quote from: Nick on November 16, 2023, 08:14:55 PMAre the 2 new(old) songs available yet?
They are now up on the streaming services as 'the lost demos'.
Quote from: Thenop on December 05, 2023, 03:49:48 PMQuote from: Nick on November 16, 2023, 08:14:55 PMAre the 2 new(old) songs available yet?
They are now up on the streaming services as 'the lost demos'.
Any good?
Quote from: Fishy on December 05, 2023, 05:19:30 PMQuote from: Thenop on December 05, 2023, 03:49:48 PMQuote from: Nick on November 16, 2023, 08:14:55 PMAre the 2 new(old) songs available yet?
They are now up on the streaming services as 'the lost demos'.
Any good?
No idea, haven't listened to them yet. Just noticed they were there.
But seeing these are outtakes for MFH I guess only fans of that album would enjoy these.
I think that's right. I don't like them at all myself.
Reportedly the Massey Hall 'show' is being filmed and Alex is the interviewer.
Quote from: Thenop on December 08, 2023, 06:34:36 AMReportedly the Massey Hall 'show' is being filmed and Alex is the interviewer.
Yes, watched a clip of Al introducing the show in typically amusing fashion. 😊
Quote from: Matt2112 on December 08, 2023, 07:30:43 AMQuote from: Thenop on December 08, 2023, 06:34:36 AMReportedly the Massey Hall 'show' is being filmed and Alex is the interviewer.
Yes, watched a clip of Al introducing the show in typically amusing fashion. 😊
Was it blah blah blah blah blah blah blah here's geddy lee?
Anyone go to Wolverhampton? What was it like? Who was the interviewer?
didn't go, but Nicky Wire was the interviewer.
Plus Phil Wilding apparently.
Quote from: Nick on December 11, 2023, 07:47:14 PMPlus Phil Wilding apparently.
Thought he'd be involved
Who's that? The Phil guy?
Quote from: dom on December 11, 2023, 08:07:44 PMWho's that? The Phil guy?
Classic Rock journo. Has interviewed Geddy a few times and was involved in The Big Book of Bass event in Manchester
Had and email from ShowFilmFirst offering tickets for Geddy's show in Sheffield tomorrow for £40+fees.
Thought I might shell out, but it doesn't recognise my email address when trying to log in and I can't set up a new account. Ho-hum.
Oh well, he's come and gone and I didn't go. I wasn't feeling great anyway so just as well. I tried to analyse my feelings about this tour last night. Rush had such a profound effect on my life that I just couldn't figure out why this has been a quandary for me. I became aware of the band before the 80s but the addiction didn't kick in until PW.
I remember being in the pub one night a few days prior to my first Rush concert at Glasgow's Apollo. I hadn't been able to hear much more of their music other than PW and some memories of AFTK which I had swapped away a while before this time. I remember a girl I didn't care for much mocking me about never having heard 2112 as I desperately tried to get someone to record some of the back catalogue for me before the gig.
I was so skint back then, but things were soon to get even worse on that front. My dad died in November 1980. It was unexpected. He was 51, fit and well, but caught a weird disease when helping to organise a filthy unused print room for the newspaper who had just acquired new premises. He had been over the moon, having been made redundant by the Express who had decided to move to Manchester a couple of years before. It had been his life and getting back to a newspaper print room had seemed unlikely until that time.
I can see now why the band's music took over my young self. It filled a gap even larger than I realised existed at the time and Neil's lyrics were a constant inspiration and mental support. Therapy I suppose.
Well, I think that's why I find this staggering over the line like a poor marathon finish unwelcoming. I'm looking forward to my Christmas present of the book and I know I will love it and it will trigger so many memories, happy and sad. But it was the music, their massive skill set and the wondrous feeling of healthy obsession which is important to me and I look forward greatly to any further music Geddy and Alex might make together.
Oh dear, this will stir things up: Alex is with Geddy at the Portsmouth 'gig' tonight!
Better than Phil Jupitus, that's for sure.
Wish I could do London now...alas, no chance.
With the baddiel brothers present last night and with their backgrounds clearly having shaped the people they have become....was there no discussion of the political situation in Israel and Gaza?
I don't think it would have been out of line to have raised the topic, myself...
Quote from: captainkurtz on December 19, 2023, 07:52:05 AMWith the baddiel brothers present last night and with their backgrounds clearly having shaped the people they have become....was there no discussion of the political situation in Israel and Gaza?
I don't think it would have been out of line to have raised the topic, myself...
Not sure how the questions are curated up front. Probably some topics are regarded as no-go areas.
Quote from: captainkurtz on December 19, 2023, 07:52:05 AMWith the baddiel brothers present last night and with their backgrounds clearly having shaped the people they have become....was there no discussion of the political situation in Israel and Gaza?
I don't think it would have been out of line to have raised the topic, myself...
Really? I wouldn't have like to see it discussed there, it's all about Geddy's life and book. A chance to escape all that shitty stuff in the real world
I bet Roger Waters didn't make the interviewers' short list.
L
Quote from: dom on December 19, 2023, 10:30:32 AMQuote from: captainkurtz on December 19, 2023, 07:52:05 AMWith the baddiel brothers present last night and with their backgrounds clearly having shaped the people they have become....was there no discussion of the political situation in Israel and Gaza?
I don't think it would have been out of line to have raised the topic, myself...
Really? I wouldn't have like to see it discussed there, it's all about Geddy's life and book. A chance to escape all that shitty stuff in the real world
Yeah....id like to have heard them all denounce the Israeli govt and the IDF for their continued bombardment and the loss of innocent civilian lives. Rush were quick enough to denounce the similarly appalling Hamas attack...they didn't even mention Palestinians as Palestinians...it must disgust them, surely?
Quote from: link=msg=19669 date=1702852442Better than Phil Jupitus, that's for sure.
Christ! Just seen the size of him :o
Quote from: captainkurtz on December 19, 2023, 02:31:09 PMQuote from: dom on December 19, 2023, 10:30:32 AMQuote from: captainkurtz on December 19, 2023, 07:52:05 AMWith the baddiel brothers present last night and with their backgrounds clearly having shaped the people they have become....was there no discussion of the political situation in Israel and Gaza?
I don't think it would have been out of line to have raised the topic, myself...
Really? I wouldn't have like to see it discussed there, it's all about Geddy's life and book. A chance to escape all that shitty stuff in the real world
Yeah....id like to have heard them all denounce the Israeli govt and the IDF for their continued bombardment and the loss of innocent civilian lives. Rush were quick enough to denounce the similarly appalling Hamas attack...they didn't even mention Palestinians as Palestinians...it must disgust them, surely?
Honestly I think Geddy made a mistake issuing a public statement about the Hamas attack in the first place. Perhaps at the very least some expression of regret for the overall loss of life might have been appropriate, given that he did.
Quote from: Slim on December 21, 2023, 07:43:10 AMQuote from: captainkurtz on December 19, 2023, 02:31:09 PMQuote from: dom on December 19, 2023, 10:30:32 AMQuote from: captainkurtz on December 19, 2023, 07:52:05 AMWith the baddiel brothers present last night and with their backgrounds clearly having shaped the people they have become....was there no discussion of the political situation in Israel and Gaza?
I don't think it would have been out of line to have raised the topic, myself...
Really? I wouldn't have like to see it discussed there, it's all about Geddy's life and book. A chance to escape all that shitty stuff in the real world
Yeah....id like to have heard them all denounce the Israeli govt and the IDF for their continued bombardment and the loss of innocent civilian lives. Rush were quick enough to denounce the similarly appalling Hamas attack...they didn't even mention Palestinians as Palestinians...it must disgust them, surely?
Honestly I think Geddy made a mistake issuing a public statement about the Hamas attack in the first place. Perhaps at the very least some expression of regret for the overall loss of life might have been appropriate, given that he did.
I think this topic is on the too rapidly growing list of subjects that folk are genuinely afraid of expressing their opinion on.
True..I shouldn't have raised it, but I think it is relevant and it is bugging me.
Whenever an act of terrorism is perpetrated by someone purporting to be acting in the name of Islam, I feel both sick and guilty - I'm not practicing or a believer in religion, but I do respect the fact that I was born into a Muslim family. I always try and call it out for what it is as does everyone I know...so to hear such deafening silence is disappointing.
Quote from: captainkurtz on December 21, 2023, 03:42:27 PMTrue..I shouldn't have raised it, but I think it is relevant and it is bugging me.
Whenever an act of terrorism is perpetrated by someone purporting to be acting in the name of Islam, I feel both sick and guilty - I'm not practicing or a believer in religion, but I do respect the fact that I was born into a Muslim family. I always try and call it out for what it is as does everyone I know...so to hear such deafening silence is disappointing.
No, that's not what I was meaning at all. I think you have every right to express your feelings about the human tragedy which is unfolding. My comment was about how we are being forced to self censor for fear of reprisals or even prosecution in some instances. It's everywhere now, even football. Celtic FC is currently embroiled in a dispute with a section of its season ticket holding supporters, whom they have banned from attending matches. It's stated to be on safety grounds, but coincides with the fact that these supporters have openly voiced concerns about the plight of the Palestinian people by displaying banners and Palestinian flags. The club is obviously weighing up how public opinion will regard these actions over time. Perhaps politics should be kept out of sport altogether but I'm conscious of the fact that I have just used the P word, and I know someone is watching.
Who's watching?
The man on the BTW VAR.😁
Quote from: The Picnic Wasp on December 21, 2023, 05:39:27 PMThe man on the BTW VAR.😁
Oh sorry, would you prefer if I didn't read these threads?
Quote from: Slim on December 21, 2023, 05:57:19 PMQuote from: The Picnic Wasp on December 21, 2023, 05:39:27 PMThe man on the BTW VAR.😁
Oh sorry, would you prefer if I didn't read these threads?
Not at all! But for the sake of clarity, the p word I was concerned about was politics. Can't be too careful, I'm still in the running for the Christmas Wordle.😂
I like to think any contributors to BTW would prize the free, robust and civil discourse that is characteristic of this forum above intellectual squeamishness.